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Let’s Talk About Width
I think we all love to look at a Kinder that’s chunky with lots of width, but how do we tell how much of that width is structural and genetic and how much is related to the level of condition they are in? Understanding a bit more about this question can help us avoid buying a goat based on its width alone while ignoring conformation negatives. It will also help us not to pass over a goat that may not currently show a lot of width but has great conformation over all, meets the Kinder goat breed standard, and is likely, if body condition is improved, to develop that lovely chunk and width we’re looking for in a dual purpose goat.
Lately, I’ve seen a number of goats posted that seem to show a lot of width and folks comment that it’s “structural width,” but I beg to differ and here’s why. I have a lovely mother and daughter from a lovely line of Kinders. They both tend towards meatiness, hold their condition well except for a while when feeding large numbers of babies, and generally are lovely examples of dual-purpose goats. I’ve got photos that show front ends that you could drive a bulldozer through and photos that show the very same goats looking almost narrow. We’ve collected some photos showing the same goat showing vastly different amounts of width to illustrate this point.
Think about it a moment. Let’s think of humans, for example. Let’s imagine two young girls, both slender, who while growing to childbearing age eat differently and end up at different levels of body condition. We wouldn’t expect the one who weighs more to give birth to babies who carry genes for a wider bone structure, right? We wouldn’t expect her babies to be genetically/structurally wider just because the mother has consumed more calories than needed and is carrying extra weight on her frame, right? Now apply this principle to goats. That chunky two-month-old kid you’re considering is not more likely to produce babies of great width just because she’s a little butterball from getting more milk and grain than that other kid in the herd whose mother is feeding quads or producing less milk. In fact, her extra fat makes it more likely that you’ll miss seeing structural flaws if your eye is untrained. Just as we need to avoid “color blindness” (the propensity to be attracted to a goat’s color and not notice its structural flaws) when assessing goats, we also need to avoid “condition blindness” (the propensity to think that a fat little buckling is going to bring the genetics for width into our breeding program).
Extra body fat at any age will tend to smooth out how a goat looks and help hide some flaws. It can be a mistake to think that a herd of fat goats is closer to the dual-purpose body style we’re looking for in Kinders. A better way to judge where a goat is on the meat/dairy spectrum is looking at substance (thickness) of bone, whether leg bones and ribs are more flat (dairy) or more round (meat), and paying attention to proportions of body parts. Long necks and long legs tend to indicate a more dairy body type, while blockiness of body, meatiness of hind end, shorter neck, and thickness of bone indicate the meat end of the spectrum.
When we compare kids at different farms, it’s important to pay attention to how they are fed. Bottle-fed kids who are fed as much as they are interested in drinking will look fatter and wider than dam-raised kids who are often getting less milk. Remember, if a doe is capable of giving a gallon of milk a day and you take a half gallon at morning milking, that leaves only a half gallon to divide among her kids for the rest of the day. It’s no wonder that bottle fed babies sometimes grow faster and fatter than dam-raised babies do. Don’t think that the bottle-fed baby who shows that chunkiness now is necessarily more capable of bringing width to your breeding program than a dam-raised baby who perhaps isn’t as chunky now but might actually carry more genetic width to pass on to her/his offspring.
So how do we avoid misjudging width when buying a goat? Try looking at the parents, ask about feed amounts, look at older siblings, etc. Yes, there are some herds that have all ages in a higher level of condition than is optimally healthy, and their high condition can give the impression that these are meatier goats, but think it through and look at the body proportions, bone substance, etc. Expect herds that are on dry lots eating out of mangers all year to look different than goats that are walking out to pasture and back, avoiding bugs, and constantly on the move.
Maybe looking for width is something we do partly because it’s easier to assess than other aspects of correct conformation are; but if your goal is breed and herd improvement, it’s going to help more if you can assess all aspects of conformation rather than chunk factor alone. Yes, we want width, but extra condition can be mistaken for width, and mistaking extra body fat for meatiness and correct conformation won’t help us reach our goals for our herds.
By Kathrin Bateman
Linebreeding Case Study: Still Meadow Kinders
1) What are your particular breeding goals for your herd, beyond a healthy herd that reflects the Kinder Breed Standard?
For me, in addition to a correct animal that displays appropriate breed type, function is truly key. At the end of the day, I want my Kinders both to produce enough milk to be a competitive dairy animal for their size and to efficiently convert feed into a quickly developing and muscular carcass.
2) What do you see as the general pros and cons of linebreeding?
Linebreeding intensifies and solidifies traits. Its primary goal is to influence consistency. Unfortunately, this does not mean only positive traits, but negative ones as well. While breeding should always be done with careful thought and clear goals, linebreeding even more so. Ultimately it is a tool that should be wielded carefully, as it has the potential to improve or weaken the resulting offspring.
Please offer an example of a linebreeding you have chosen to do.
Still Meadow Diego. This 3.5 year-old buck is the result of a close linebreeding (sire bred to his own dam). [See pedigree.]
4) What was your reasoning behind this particular match?
After having Diego’s dam for many years and being familiar with her strengths and weaknesses, as well seeing a lot of positive qualities in her son Rusty’s offspring, I decided to experiment with breeding them together to solidify their numerous similar and ideal qualities. In general I prefer to be as familiar as possible with a goat and its lines before experimenting with heavy linebreeding.
Rusty 
Daisy
5) How did the offspring turn out? Did you get what you wanted?
Arguably, Diego turned out very well. I’d like to see more levelness hip to pin and straighter front legs (he turns out), and he lost a bit of size compared to his immediate family, but otherwise I’m extremely pleased with him. As a sire he’s been very interesting. He nearly universally adds width throughout (including rump width), heaviness of bone, and muscling to his kids. But he doesn’t seem to affect much else. He has a pretty decent topline but didn’t seem to pass that on to any of his kids. Whatever the dam was like, the kids took after her. I noticed that tendency to a much lesser extreme in his sire (influencing levelness in toplines and rumps). Tightening those genetics definitely led to a more pronounced bend toward (not) affecting levelness. To be fair, Diego has not seemed to make any kid worse from my observation; he just lends no improvement whatsoever in that area.
6) What traits will lead you to decide to cull an animal, and how does line breeding affect your willingness to cull?
Any fault or extreme weakness in any area of conformation and type could be a reason to cull. I’m quicker to cull for poor udders and substandard milk production, as well as lacking muscularity and general meatiness. But it depends on each individual and whether that goat has enough positive qualities to be worth keeping in the Kinder gene pool.
7) How do you personally balance linebreeding with outcrossing and at what point do you decide to outcross?
I regularly outcross for various reasons (including maintaining genetic diversity). I tend to outcross when I’m trying to bring in traits I need to improve on, and I linebreed when I’m trying to cement in the qualities I like and want more consistency in.
8) If you are also buying or breeding first gens, what are your strategies for introducing terrific new genetics that don’t derail the traits you have linebred to achieve?
I chose to focus on a few select traits when picking Nubians and Pygmies for my first generation lines. I went with heavy-boned, well-muscled animals (particularly in the Nubians) that displayed a lot of capacity and matured early. I paired that with nice udders and heavy production while avoiding extreme faults such as overly steep rumps, overly weak chines, etc. My first gen kids so far have been displaying the best of these traits, with few and mild weaknesses throughout. I intend to use them to influence better udders and higher milk production in my existing lines, while complementing my general style (heavy, efficient meat traits).
By Elizabeth Sweet and Ashley Kennedy
Care After Kidding
Hopefully your does all kid easily and without any intervention. If they need help, follow-up care will depend on circumstances and the recommendations of your veterinarian. For now, let’s assume that everything went great, and you only needed to help a little or not at all.
During labor and directly after kids are born, I give my does warm water with a little molasses in it, followed by fresh hay and grain. When I am sure that there are no more kids waiting to be born, I encourage my doe to get up and eat. This helps to keep her rumen functioning, avoids her having legs fall asleep from being in an awkward position for too long, and allows kids access to the udder. I make sure all kids are nursing and able to find the teat on their own. If they aren’t, I help them until they get the hang of it.
About an hour later, after I’m sure all the kids have nursed well, I milk the doe out almost completely to make sure she’s not uncomfortable and to encourage more milk production and shrinking of her uterus. If you don’t milk your doe out, she can end up with mastitis or a blown teat if her kids all decide to nurse from the same side.
The first few times I milk a first freshener, I just tie her to the wall and milk straight onto the ground or a towel. That way she can jump around without tipping over a bucket and freaking herself out. I just let her jump around and kick all she wants. I stay calm and quiet and don’t take my hands off her teats until she settles down.
I continue to milk out once or twice a day until the babies start eating more; then I milk out once a day.
If I am worried about a doe’s ability to produce enough milk for her kids, I will sometimes milk her out only once, shortly after freshening, and then monitor closely and milk only if needed. In these cases, I still put her on the milk stand every 12 or 24 hours and squirt a little milk out to make sure it’s not bloody or stringy. I also check to make sure neither side is staying more full or getting hard and that teats aren’t getting raw. It’s also a good way to make sure that new moms are getting enough grain.
I deworm does on day 2 or 3, disbud and vaccinate babies at 10–14 days, and start pulling babies at night and milking the dam in the morning at 2–3 weeks. I try to gradually keep babies separated from dams for longer and longer after pulling them at night so that they are completely weaned by 10 weeks and ready to go to new homes. I treat kids with Baycox® (Toltrazuril) because coccidia is such a problem around here. I check random fecals for other parasites, but only treat as needed.
By Sue Beck
If everything went well, and I don’t need to treat with antibiotics or address the need for further vet assistance, I too give warm molasses water and make sure they have access to whatever food they like. The does clean their babies completely. Babies stick around until the delivery process is good and done.
I milk the doe out completely when the kids are clean. I get my does used to being milked sooner than later. Nursing kids and being milked are completely different, so getting used to one process will not get them used to the other. And even if the kids are taking all of a doe’s milk, I would still suggest getting a doe on the stanchion and playing with her udder. First fresheners can have quite the learning curve when it comes to being milked. You’re better off starting sooner rather than later.
As soon as a doe kids, you don’t have to get her on the stand, start touching her udder while you assist the kids in nursing. Then afterwards continue to handle her, either milking once per day to relieve excess pressure, or just taking a few squirts to get her used to it. You may need to tie her or get her on the stanchion if she really fights it.
I bring the babies in the house, but it’s important they be out of sight and hearing of momma, otherwise it’s mean. Most of my does have never raised their own babies. I would imagine trying to start pulling kids from a doe that has raised her own every year would be quite upsetting. Because the majority of my herd are bottle babies I raised myself, the does actually don’t seem to care that much when the kids leave. They’re more worried about my leaving them. They would bond with their kids just fine, but they almost immediately transfer that bond to me. The few dam-raised does I have in my herd had a little more adjustment. But they, too, end up bonding with me more.
Back in the house, I get the kids to latch onto the nipple (some are easier to train than others) and try to get at least a couple ounces of colostrum into each one. I then go back to check on my doe, and I keep watch every couple hours to make sure she’s doing OK and passes her placenta normally.
After that things are pretty easy. I milk a minimum of twice daily, but often more frequently right after kidding to encourage milk production. I don’t always deworm after kidding, but I do as necessary. Kids are put onto a bottle-feeding schedule, introduced to hay pretty quickly, and eventually to grain when they’re several weeks old. I disbud at or after two weeks old, and deworm shortly before weaning, since many as leaving for new homes at that point.
By Ashley Kennedy
The Pawing Doe
I have one doe that is a wonderful mother except for one small behavior….right after she gets the kids cleaned off she starts pawing a hole as if she’s suddenly experienced a desperate need to visit China. Typically the kids are still tottering around on unsteady feet, wanting to nurse, unsure how legs work to lay down, etc. She’s knocked them over at times, pawed sawdust onto them and once they’ve finally settled down to sleep she’s at times half buried them in bedding. My response has been checking on the kids every 20 minutes or sleeping in the stall the first night. This time I thought I’d be strategic and give her a lot less bedding and clean up any wet bedding in case it was an instinctual urge to “get rid of the birth evidence” to avoid attracting predators. That might have helped some but it wasn’t enough so I resorted to my next idea which was using the bottom half of a large transport crate with the opening against a wall, bedding it down, and using it as a playpen for the babies. I went back and got them out to nurse a couple of times and by the next day she was done with the idea of being a tourist in China and I was able to safely remove the crate. Peace reigned once again!
By Kathrin Bateman
Before You Buy: Pre-purchase Considerations
Purchasing goats is the exciting culmination of time and communication. Most buyers are familiar with typical pre-purchase considerations such as genetics, conformation, disease status and general health, and of course, location and price. Here are few additional things to consider before purchasing.
Climate
Changing locales and eventual introduction into a new herd is stressful and a drastic change in climate can increase stress. Goat breeds originated, with a some exceptions, in arid deserts or mountains. While goats can thrive in various climates, adjustment can take time. Genetic adaptation takes generations.
Excessive moisture, especially humidity, is not the ideal goat environment. Humid heat especially can cause heat stress in an animal unused to those conditions. Goats moving from dry, cool areas to humid, warm areas might initially benefit from additional cooling methods such as implementation of barn fans or buckets of cold water to lie against.
A goat sometimes has sparse or non-existent cashmere undercoat, making it particularly susceptible to the cold – this goat might be fine in the southern states but need extra attention if moved to an area with serious winters. Goats with inadequate cashmere coats might need extra calories, a safe heat source, or a blanket or coat.
The difference between a buyer’s climate and the seller’s climate probably won’t be such a serious consideration as to dissuade the buyer, but might tell the buyer to be extra-vigilant about the goat’s health until it grows accustomed to its new home.
General Management Practices
Goats are successfully raised across a wide spectrum of management styles; management varies greatly from producer to producer, from micro-managed operations to “survival of the fittest.” Most farms are somewhere in between the two extremes. It is wise to evaluate the general management practices of a producer compared to your own before purchasing, especially considering diet.
Generally speaking, it is easier for a goat to transition from a less-intensively managed operation than a very management-intense operation. For example, goats accustomed to free-choice alfalfa and large grain rations might lose condition when brought into a farm that primarily utilizes forage.
Conversely, goats unaccustomed to rich legumes or grain rations will need to be introduced to their new diet gradually. A sudden increase in these supplementations can lead to many health problems – slow changes are the key.
A goat used to walking a few steps to a buffet might lose condition when introduced to a farm where it is expected to traverse large areas or rough terrain. Goats in good body condition used to ranging might become over-conditioned when moved to a farm that utilizes dry-lotting and 24-7 availability of high-quality hay like alfalfa.
Most changes in condition because of a change in diet won’t be long-lasting, but the buyer should understand the goat’s current management to better care for the animal at its new farm.
Parasite Management
The most important consideration often over-looked is parasite management. When you buy the goat, you buy the worms, so the adage goes. If the new animal has internal parasites, especially Barber Pole worms, and is not dewormed prior to introduction into your herd, that animal will be shedding eggs in your pasture. Those eggs will hatch into larvae for your herd to pick up. Those larvae will mature and mate with worms already in your animals, passing on their genetic material.
It is possible to prevent initial egg shedding by deworming the animal with an effective product or products that show a 100% reduction rate in the fecal egg counts. However, if you do not test the effectiveness of the treatment, or have no effective treatment, there is a very good chance a few worms will survive.
The impact of these surviving worms may or may not be serious, depending on a few things. If there is not a good kill rate, of course, the number of surviving worms will increase, as will their impact on your herd.
Ask the breeder what dewormer he or she uses.
By understanding anthelmentics classes, you can hypothesize if the goat is harboring parasites that will either be resistant or susceptible to the class of dewormer effective on your farm.
For example, in terms of strongyle treatment, the imidazothiazole Levamisol (one brand name is Prohibit®), is considered the most-effective class and the benzimidozoles or “white dewormers” the least effective. If the farm you are purchasing from already uses levamisol while you typically and effectively use the albendazole (which is a benzimidozole) Valbazen®, it is almost certain that the parasites in your new animal will be resistant to Valbazen®.
If you typically and effectively use ivermectin 1% and the seller typically uses moxidectin, it is possible that these parasites will not be effectively killed with ivermectin, even though both moxidectin and ivermectin are in the macrocyclic lactone class. Moxidectin is more potent.
For a great overview of classes, read “Choosing the Right Drug for Worm Control” by Lisa Williamson DVM, MS, DACVIM. The full text is available at the American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control website.
There are a few studies indicating that, for a short time, it is possible that bringing in susceptible parasites (i.e. the seller successfully deworms with a white dewormer while you use ivermectin) will dilute resistant parasite populations. Of course, this depends on several factors, and has only been successfully implemented in more intensively-managed grazing operations. The effects of this dilution were generally short-lived – a study where resistance was measured over 3 years later showed anthelmentic failure again – but the subject is still being researched. For more information, check out “Replacement of Resistant Worms with Susceptible Worms – Can We Do It, and Is It Sustainable?” by Melissa George, BS, MS at WormBoss.com.
Ask for deworming records and methods.
- How often has the herd been dewormed?
- How often has the individual goat you are considering purchasing required treatment?
Some farms accept a higher number of treatments year; others are quite strict and cull animals that need repeated treatments, especially in comparison to herdmates. A few do not tolerate an animal that needs dewormed, period.
To slow anthelmentic resistance, a general rule of thumb is animals should not need dewormed more than three times a year.
If the breeder chemically deworms on a schedule, seriously consider passing on that animal. This outdated practice is proven to very strongly select for resistant parasites and is one of the causes of complete anthelmentics failure in some farms – this means the parasites are resistant to every class of dewormer – and useless classes in others.
Remember that the best method for deworming is not to deworm on a schedule but by need. Does the seller deworm the entire herd or select only the animals that need treatment based on fecals, FAMACHA, and condition and thereby slow resistance and increase refugia?
For more information on dewormers and deworming practices, please refer to the blog posts “The Barber Pole Worm” and “Are You Deworming Your Goats Correctly?”
Ask about resistance and resilience of the sire and dam.
Studies have proven both resistance and resilience to parasite infections is moderately heritable. Breeding animals that require more-than-average treatments can negatively impact the herd’s genetics. Culling those less-hardy animals and breeding stock that requires fewer dewormings than the herd average can positively influence subsequent generations. It takes time, but it is a worthwhile effort to breed for animals that are more naturally tolerant or resistant to parasite burdens.
Will the new animal’s genes, in relation to parasite resistance or resilience, positively or negatively affect your herd?
Consider these few additional things before purchasing to better acclimate your new goat, improve or maintain the parasite resistant or resilient genes in your herd, or avoid purchasing an influx of tough-to-treat parasites.
By Kendra Shatswell
Linebreeding Case Study: Bramble Patch Kinders
1) What are your particular breeding goals for your herd, beyond a healthy herd that reflects the Kinder Breed Standard?
My purpose for breeding the Kinder goat was to breed a goat of good conformation and good udders and udder attachments that would also produce a good meat carcass.
2) What do you see as the general pros and cons of linebreeding?
I do not see any negatives. Linebreeding and inbreeding are the same with all animals, BUT there is one big difference with breeding Kinders. Here you are outcrossing two different breeds. When breeding a Pygmy and Nubian, you are breeding 50/50, and that will never change no matter the number of breedings, so how are you going to find any consistency here? It is simply the matter of trying to fool mother nature, of finding the good traits and determining where these good traits come from, then repeating the genetics of that goat over and over again in your lines. Looking for those good Nubian lines will probably be much easier than looking for good lines of the Pygmy. My first breeding for Kinders was strictly a shot in the dark, so to speak, because I did not know the genetics of that first Pygmy, but later I did much research and knew that I needed to go with a Pygmy that came from good milking lines and a breeder that was interested in good udders or a breeder that was interested in show wins. I did both! Alice Hall’s Pygmy lines were the ones that I searched for in my second Pygmy buck. I tried to use as many of the Gasconade Nubian lines that I could find because they are the more meaty of the Nubians. Harvey suggested this in his first evaluation here. Evaluations, this practice is the key to good breeding.
3) Please offer an example of a linebreeding you have chosen to do.
I will show E Lee for my example.
4) What was your reasoning behind this particular match?
Wanting to keep the Ruppel genetics strong in my lines. She evaluated as excellent! She had a good udder and milked well and her body conformation was very good. Her teat size made her easy to milk, which is very important in a Kinder. Concord also evaluated as excellent.
BPK Concord 
BPK Ebony
5) How did the offspring turn out? Did you get what you wanted?
Yes! I can see her all down the lines. Concord is her sire and her grandsire, and he comes from milking lines, and these lines have continued in my herd.
6) What traits will lead you to decide to cull an animal, and how does linebreeding affect your willingness to cull?
You must cull no matter the breeding – linebreeding, inbreeding or crossbreeding. No one is going to breed perfect animals, so those less perfect need to be culled, and this is where evaluations really are important. All breeders are barn blind, thinking all their animals are just wonderful. This is where an experienced person that has been schooled along these lines is needed to help evaluate what is good and what is bad in each animal. There are lots of long-time breeders that can help guide us, but it takes that trained individual to really see those positives and negatives in our herd. Most judges are good evaluators, but most judges that we see today do not understand the dual-purpose animal. There are many breeders out there that only want to breed the animal that suits them and not the animal that fits our scorecard and breed standard, and there are many judges that do not understand our dual-purpose goat, either.
7) How do you personally balance linebreeding with outcrossing and at what point do you decide to outcross?
After I got started, I outcrossed only with animals that I knew what their good traits were.
8) If you are also buying or breeding first gens, what are your strategies for introducing terrific new genetics that don’t derail the traits you have linebred to achieve?
I have very seldom ever outcrossed. When I did, it was usually from my breeding, where I knew both the Pygmy side and Nubian side. I always look for some of my genetics in an animal that I am going to buy. Those genetics may be back four generations, but I almost always make sure some are there. This is what makes having our database showing each of our Kinder goats genetics so very important. We can see all their bloodlines for generations back. May I end by saying that these are only my thoughts and how I bred Kinders. I am not schooled in genetics; however, I think genetics would be most fascinating to learn. Harvey Considine’s evaluations and linebreeding were my main tools for breeding the Kinder goat.
By Sue Huston
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